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  #31  
Old 04-18-2010, 09:01 AM
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i would run something better then organic for a turbo SHO engine

say what you want now, but I HIGHLY doubt you will stay with 300hp on a turbo engine when you are a tune and turning up the boost controller away from more power
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  #32  
Old 04-18-2010, 11:24 AM
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Are you running the wiring harness from the SHO? Have you decided on engine mgmt?
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  #33  
Old 04-18-2010, 02:23 PM
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I was thinking of the same thing.

There is a lot more flexibility in the Mustang engine management system then there is in the SHO system.

Don't get me wrong, the SHO system is wide open, but the Mustang system has more depth, plus, we can easily get around the PATS system and keep the gauge cluster functioning properly.

Tuning with the Mustang system will be significantly easier as well.

I've got some ideas about the compound turbo set up as well.
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  #34  
Old 04-18-2010, 04:38 PM
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My dads work owns a clutch shop so if u need something i can have him look into getting u one
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  #35  
Old 04-20-2010, 12:37 AM
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You know, I have the wiring harness from the entire car. I mean from the headlights to the taillights. I've been so wrapped up in trying to sort out the mechanical portion of the project that it hadn't occurred to me to even try to use the EMS that is in the Mustang already.

It would require some serious modification to run properly (I would think) but since I have the key to that computer (the Mustang is still on the road at the moment) I don't see the PATS being an issue. I don't know how the rev limiter works in a Mustang, but I'd imagine the logic is the same as in the SHO.

It would save me a lot of re-wiring though.

If anyone has any idea of how this might work, let me know.


Also, since I have the wiring harness for an entire car and won't need, probably, 90% of it, if anyone is looking for something electrical I might have it. This car had keypad entry apparently too. I'll post a picture or a list of what I have.


One last thing. I took the valve covers off and I think this motor is about 40k past the 60k tune-up. That, and there is about a half inch of sludge built up in there. Consequences of using conventional oil I guess. Any chemicals that anyone has had success with? It's sitting in Gunk right now.

-Zach'sV6
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  #36  
Old 04-20-2010, 12:40 AM
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I guess EEC-V like the Mustang is just the next step in the chain. The upgrade from EEC-IV. So, more evidence that it would work I suppose. Just a matter of programming.
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  #37  
Old 04-20-2010, 12:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by llamaking122 View Post
My dads work owns a clutch shop so if u need something i can have him look into getting u one

Yes. Clutches are the thing on this project. I can get a custom one, organic, kevlar, bronze, just about anything. But I'm open to all ideas.

-Zach'sV6
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  #38  
Old 04-20-2010, 12:47 AM
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I've opened up a 250k mile motor that had no sludge, and these engines are pretty good for that. I'd make sure you look over the whole engine if it's got sludge, that's not a great sign.
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  #39  
Old 04-20-2010, 01:21 AM
Zach'sV6 Zach'sV6 is offline
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Did a quick search on the EEC-IV and EEC-V and they are, more or less, very similar. The EEC-V is about 20% faster than the EEC-IV and also has algorithms for controlling the various automatics that Ford used through 2003.

The EEC-IV I have from the SHO is an X2J, I don't know what the Mustang EEC-V code is, there are several. I don't suppose there is much stopping me from using my 3.8 harness, appropriately cut and spliced, and simply modifying the holy hell out of the EEC. I would need to adapt the 36-1 tooth crank sensor cog to fit the SHO engine. Guess that's something I need to look in to.

Looks like I'm buying a TwEECar RT soon. There is a place about 40 miles from here that sells them.


A note on the sludge. I figure it's from the PO using cheap oil changes combined with the short trips to work that I was told about. The presence of the sludge backs up that story actually. It's one of three things:

1) Oxidation and breakdown of poor quality, unstable oil. That is, oil which is poorly refined and inadequately treated with antioxidation and stabilizing additives. Such oils may readily form heavy sludge and varnish deposits in engines in severe service. "Oxidation sludge".

2) Contamination of the oil with excessive amounts of combustion products.

3) Oils having inadequate detergency properties. One chief function of a good Heavy Duty detergent type oil is to keep insoluble contaminants in dispersion in the oil, so that the insoluble matter won’t emulsify and form sludge and varnish deposits. When the best of high detergency oils are overloaded with insoluble matter, separation of sludges is bound to occur.

It's unlikely that it's #2 since the cylinders are still crosshatched. It suspect that the culprit is regular oil changes with crappy oil combined with short grocery getter type trips; a lot of stop-and-go San Antonio traffic.

Sorry for being so wordy. I hope you all like text.


-Zach'cV6
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  #40  
Old 04-20-2010, 09:23 AM
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Zach, if the PO managed to get visible sludge in the top of the heads by his/her poor maintenance practices, I would strongly suggest pulling the heads, pulling the pistons and cleaning up the ring grooves on the pistons. The ring grooves are typically the first thing that gets carboned up due to oil change issues, and this results in sticky rings and excessive blowby, not to mention poor power.

If you want to use the Mustang EEC-V, I would recommend a SCT tuner with Pro-Racer software - that has excellent modification abilities for virtually all Mustang pcm codes, and is much easier to use than the tweecer. You might do a little more research on that topic to decide the best route for your project.
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  #41  
Old 04-20-2010, 11:28 AM
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That's going to happen. I called a shop today to get prices on a basic 3 angle valve job and clean-up. The block, I can handle with a soft hone, 3 gals of kerosene and some new rings.

Any oil pump issues with these motors? That'd be a helluva note if I get the motor in the car and then the oil pump dies on me.

-Zach'sV6

Last edited by Zach'sV6; 04-20-2010 at 11:29 AM.
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  #42  
Old 04-20-2010, 01:09 PM
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The oil pumps can fail but normally they are very durable. If you pull the pistons you'll get a good look at the screen, windage tray and pump. See how that looks and might change the rod bearings if you're pulling pistons too.

I agree with more tuning options if you are going to run EEC V wiring and use the Mustang ECU/PCM.
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  #43  
Old 04-20-2010, 10:51 PM
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I'd just remove old rings, clean carefully and reinstall the original rings w/o any honing, but that's just me. If there is still crosshatching on the cylinder walls with no scratches, the rings are still good.
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  #44  
Old 04-21-2010, 01:14 PM
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I'm just using a ball hone. I'm not going to re-ring with moly and I can't find Wiseco rings (chrome top ring) so it's going to be Hastings or Perfect Circle. Both of those require a 240 grit hone to seat properly. Really, all the hone is going to do is break the glaze on the cylinder wall anyway.

The thing is, if I just throw rings in there, it's going to take forever to break them in and while that is happening, I'm burning oil and adding metal to my oil. Then there's also the chance that they won't break in at all if I don't use the hone.
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  #45  
Old 04-21-2010, 01:28 PM
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Something I have to tackle is the conversion from DIS to EDIS...or maybe not. This is my problem. The SHO EEC-IV uses a DIS system that uses two hall effect sensors, one on the cam, one on the crank to generate a spark profile. The Mustang EEC-V is EDIS and uses a single 36-1 toothed wheel on the crank and a variable reluctance sensor to generate a spark profile. The cam sensor on the Mustang is only used for fuel injector timing.

Cam sensor: I'm not worried about, it's a hall effect sensor on both engines and it's just a matter of determining the pin-out.

Crank sensor: I'm thinking of ways to tackle this. Should I leave the DIS system in place or try to cobble together a VRS/crank wheel setup? The firing order on the SHO motor and the 3.8L V6 is the same so I don't expect much difficulty with the computer if I get a 36-1 tooth wheel on the crank somehow.

Suggestions? My biggest concern is how the EEC-V in the mustang is going to handle the DIS when it's programmed for EDIS.

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  #46  
Old 04-21-2010, 01:35 PM
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I was just reading about something similar with a guy building a KA24 and converting it from a distributor ignition to one using DIS off of an escort that uses the 36-1 tooth wheel.

i'll see if i can find it. maybe it'll help.
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  #47  
Old 04-21-2010, 02:33 PM
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I think making the tooth wheel is the way to go. It's a more accurate system for spark timing anyway. The EEC gets data every 10deg crank rotation vs. every 90deg for the DIS system and hall effect sensors. Plus...

I think I have room to put a wheel on the back of the crank pulley -if- I run without timing belt covers, which I was going to do anyway. Then it's just a matter of making a bracket to mount the VRS, also not too hard.

One last thing. I pulled my timing belt off the cam pulleys by hand without having to loosen anything. Guess a new tensioner should be in my budget too.

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  #48  
Old 04-21-2010, 07:39 PM
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well if its 3.0 it should be a manual tensioner. So you would just tighten it.


Btw kool project. I heard the engine bay was kinda small in that body style.
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  #49  
Old 04-21-2010, 09:07 PM
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You might be able to find a trigger wheel already made here: http://trigger-wheels.com/store/

Tom
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  #50  
Old 04-21-2010, 09:19 PM
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I was so expecting to get rick rolled on that one Tom... who knew there was actually a trigger-wheels.com?
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  #51  
Old 04-21-2010, 10:14 PM
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LoL!

That is the most oddly specific site I've ever seen. Thank you for pointing it out, I really would have never guessed that it even existed.


-Zach'sV6
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  #52  
Old 04-21-2010, 11:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zach'sV6 View Post
Suggestions? My biggest concern is how the EEC-V in the mustang is going to handle the DIS when it's programmed for EDIS.

-Zach'sV6
It should be easy to re-wire the engine for EDIS if you add the 36-1 toothed wheel. you just eliminate the dis since the pcm fires the coils directly, right?
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  #53  
Old 04-22-2010, 12:44 AM
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FYI the Escort trigger wheel is .215" thick. I have one on my SVO and I had the crank pulley machined so that the escort wheel will fit behind it without messing up my belt alignment.
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  #54  
Old 04-22-2010, 02:33 AM
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Originally Posted by rubydist View Post
It should be easy to re-wire the engine for EDIS if you add the 36-1 toothed wheel. you just eliminate the dis since the pcm fires the coils directly, right?
Yup, that's what I'm going to do. I can get rid of the pesky CPS and replace it with a much less pesky VRS, probably the same one off my 3.8L.

It's a remarkably simple operation. Mount the trigger wheel, mount the VRS six teeth back from the gap tooth and that's about it. Literally, the hardest part is mounting the trigger wheel. Since I'm running w/o timing belt covers, I'll probably mount my trigger wheel to the back of the crank pulley and the VRS somewhere in there.

I'm going to jinx myself for saying this...but...this is so far turning out to be a lot less complicated project than I had expected. The original swap motor was going to be a V10 from a truck, more hp, more tq, but heavy as hell and I'd have to swap k-members. Plus, no aftermarket support...at all. The SHO motor is turning out to be the far FAR better choice anyway.

_Zach

Last edited by Zach'sV6; 04-22-2010 at 02:38 AM.
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  #55  
Old 04-22-2010, 09:08 AM
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I disagree... PD blown terminator 5.4 32 valve would have been the way i went. but hey, i'm all mainstream like that.
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  #56  
Old 04-22-2010, 01:19 PM
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Well, yeah...but a blown 5.4 is $$$x10^8....

The V10 was only about $1000, and so far, on the SHO motor I've spent less than $300 and that got me the entire car harness and a pretty good motor.

I like to spend a lot of time outside the box. I've got a house there, it's nice.

-Zach'sV6
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Old 04-22-2010, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zach'sV6 View Post
Well, yeah...but a blown 5.4 is $$$x10^8....

The V10 was only about $1000, and so far, on the SHO motor I've spent less than $300 and that got me the entire car harness and a pretty good motor.

I like to spend a lot of time outside the box. I've got a house there, it's nice.

-Zach'sV6
This is a cheap engine to extract power from. 400whp from a stock engine + boost or spray. 600+ with pistons and more boost or spray. I ran my turbo ATX SHO for 2 or 3 years before I got stupid and cracked a piston. Couple hundred bucks later and i'm back in business. Now transmissions are a whole different story but that is irrelevant to this thread.

keep us updated I am really excited about your build. It is getting me pumped about getting my build going.
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  #58  
Old 04-22-2010, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zach'sV6 View Post
The thing is, if I just throw rings in there, it's going to take forever to break them in and while that is happening, I'm burning oil and adding metal to my oil. Then there's also the chance that they won't break in at all if I don't use the hone.
No one else seemed to respond to this question (I think your EDIS/DIS quandary threw them all off), so here's my take on it:

The suggestions I saw about what to do with your rings were to keep the current rings (i.e. don't buy new ones at all), just take them out, clean them up and put them back in. This way you don't have to worry about cylinder honing or breaking in the rings.

The idea behind this suggestion was that if your cross-hatching still looks good, there's no good reason to replace the rings at all.
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  #59  
Old 04-22-2010, 05:51 PM
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I was under the impression that the 4.6L 32 valve which came with a Eaton M112 was the terminator motor not the 5.4L 32valve which came on the Cobra and Australian production Fords but either way, that's big money to build a 5.4L 32valve motor, a 4.6 would be a better route since its a lot cheaper.

I don't see why you can's use all the SHO wiring, it's not integrated into other systems of the vehicle like a lot of cars, thats why I had no problem putting the complete system in my Honda, although I'm still running the Taurus SHO gauges, when I have time I'll get the Honda rpm, speedo and temp gauge to work, the idiot lights are easy.

I'm glad your doing something different, its easy to build a 4.6L and go crazy with it, its been done to death.
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Old 04-22-2010, 11:38 PM
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from what I gathered he was looking at using the cars wiring is that the ECU is more advanced and allows for better adjustment of the timing tables compared to the SHO system.
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